Comments on: Decibel Flavors Part 1 – L Values http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/ Discussion on community noise in Austin, Texas Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:26:35 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.7.6 By: Joshua Leasure http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-666 Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:49:47 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-666 There’s no way to do a direct conversion, since Leq and L90 are calculated in fundamentally different ways.

I can think of two ways you can make an approximation. Neither of them are great, but I can’t think of any better options.

The first thing you can do is make the assumption that the Leq spectrum is similar in shape to the L90 spectrum. This is not a reliable assumption to make, since the L90 spectrum can be quite different from Leq, depending on what sounds you were measuring. Subtract the difference between your unweighted (overall) Leq and A-weighted Leq from your unweighted L90 and that will approximate the A-weighted Leq.

L90 (dBA, approx) = L90 (unweighted) – [Leq (unweighted) – Leq (dBA)]

If you don’t have the unweighted Leq already, you can calculate it by adding up the 1/3-octave or octave bands using decibel addition.

The other approach you can take is to do some research and dig up some Ln spectra for a similar measurement. L90 captures a good representation of background, ambient noise, so if you can find a measurement done in a similar location chances are decent the background spectrum will be similar to what it was for your measurement. Again, approximate the A-weighted L90 for your data by subtracting the difference between the unweighted and A-weighted numbers for your reference measurement.

Hopefully you weren’t in an unusual environment. If you were somewhere typical, like an outdoor rural area, then comparing your data to a measurement in a similar environment should yield decent results.

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By: Don http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-665 Tue, 27 Sep 2011 23:34:39 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-665 Hi, I have a dilemma. During monitoring noise at a certain location, overall 15-minute L90 values (linear) were recorded. However, I am after the A-weighted 15-minute L90 value. There is no spectrum for the L90 values and only have spectrum data for Leq,1min. Is there any way the A-weighted L90 value,15minute could be derived from the available data? Any help would be appreciated.

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By: Ralph http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-545 Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:10:33 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-545 “60 dBA will always be higher than 59 dBA, regardless of whether you’re talking in decibels or Pascals of sound pressure”
Thanks Joshua, I realise that was a kind of dumb question now! (Like asking if I need to change a box of jelly babies into chorus girls before counting them. Actually, there would be some point in doing that….) 🙂

I’ve got the percentile formula working in Excel now. Just as a point of interest for those trying it, the syntax is:

PERCENTILE(Range,xValue)

Because of the way the formula works, For L90 the xValue is 0.1, for L10 it is 0.9. The only Ln value that is the same as the xValue obviously is L50.

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By: Joshua Leasure http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-544 Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:16:35 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-544 Hi Ralph. There’s no point in converting decibels to sound pressure, since you’re not actually “calculating” L90 in a strict sense of the word. It’s really just a statistical examination of the data, and each individual SPL sample the meter takes is not added/subtracted/multiplied or otherwise mathematically combined with any of the other samples. 60 dBA will always be higher than 59 dBA, regardless of whether you’re talking in decibels or Pascals of sound pressure, so it works no matter what you do. Better to just stay in decibels.

Another perspective that might help you understand the process is to consider that finding L50 is the same process as finding the median. The median value of any group of data falls below 50% and above 50% of the group. The L90 value falls below 90% and above 10% of the samples.

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By: Ralph http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-543 Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:34:31 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-543 Thanks for the useful explanation Joshua. Would the L90 figures have to be calculated from the actual numerical value for sound pressure level, not the decibel value, in the same way as in the LEQ calculations?

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By: Joshua Leasure http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-173 Mon, 17 May 2010 15:24:43 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-173 Determining Ln values from a data set isn’t too difficult, though it’s tedious, so the percentile function would certainly make that task more simpe (“percentile” is another term used to describe statistical values). The trick is actually collecting the data. Generally the types of sound level meters that can collect the type of data appropriate for determining Ln already have Ln functionality built in.

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By: David http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-172 Mon, 17 May 2010 15:20:08 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-172 Joshua:
Thanks, I discovered a function / formula in Excel that calculates L10 and L90 automagically from a data set

It is the “percentile” function.

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By: seti http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-153 Wed, 05 May 2010 08:45:28 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-153 hello hye..
joshua
thanks alot for details explaination..u’re really help me to find out the L10, L90 and Ln manually.
actually for noise level measurement i used sound level meter and the value will appear digitally
but for manually, if we can’t read the Leq so we can use L10 L90 l50 to calculate Leq,is that right joshua?
good jobs dear.

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By: Joshua Leasure http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-139 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:07:51 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-139 Hi David. Very good question!

It’s really a matter of counting more than a matter of calculating. Ln values are called statistical measurements because they’re a result of analyzing a group of samples, rather than performing a calculation. During a measurement the sound level meter continuously adds the current SPL to a histogram. The interval between samples is constant and internal to the meter, and certainly less than a second. L10 then becomes the value that is lower than 10% of the measurements and higher than 90% of the measurements.

Here’s a very simplified example. Suppose we turn on our SLM long enough for it to collect 20 samples and we ask it to tell us the L20 of the measurement. The samples it collects, in chronological order, are:

58, 59, 58, 57, 56, 55, 55, 56, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 62, 61, 62, 63, 64

To determine L20, we look for the value that is below 20%, or 4 out of 20, of the samples. The easiest way to do this is to sort the samples in descending order:

64, 63, 62, 62, 62, 61, 61, 60, 59, 59, 58, 58, 58, 57, 57, 56, 56, 56, 55, 55

L20 will be the value below the top 4 values and above the bottom 16. The 4th and 5th samples (in descending order) are 62 and 62, so L20 is 62. In other words, 20% of the time, the measured sound level was above 62 dB.

We can also determine the L50 (or any other Ln from our data) by using a similar analysis. Instead of the top 20% of samples, we would instead determine the top 50%, or 10 out of 20. The 10th and 11th samples, in descending order, are 59 and 58. So the L50 is somewhere between 58 and 59 dB.

The only way you could really do this calculation in Excel is if you had access to frequent periodic samples of the measured sound level meter. Generally the only way you can collect that type of data is with an advanced sound level meter, and such a meter will almost certainly have Ln functionality built in, so it’s sort of pointless to do it yourself. In a real Ln measurement the SLM will collect far more than 20 samples, so doing it by hand in a spreadsheet could be quite an undertaking.

If you had a quick pencil, you could approximate Ln values by watching a simple SLM and recording the value at regular intervals; every 10 seconds for an hour, to use your example, would work well, giving you 360 samples. You would watch a clock with a second hand and every 10 seconds write whatever value was on the SLM at that moment. You would then enter all of your samples into a spreadsheet and sort them in descending order. You could then determine your approximate L10 by seeing what value had 10% (36 out of 360) of the samples above it.

-Joshua

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By: David http://austinnoise.org/2010/02/03/decibel-flavors-part-1-l-values/comment-page-1/#comment-137 Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:04:02 +0000 http://austinnoise.org/?p=219#comment-137 Could you explain how L10 and L90 are actually calculated from sound level measurement data?
That is, given a one hour sound level measurement at 10 second intervals, how would you calculate the L10, practically speaking? Is there a way to do it in the Excel spreadsheet program?

Thanks

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